Lol, you can't expect to understand God in a moments time my sweetest child, especially if you are still in the cave. It takes years of work, but I am happy to impart my great wisdom upon you O youth.
K kidding aside, the really short version: what if they were all not quite as innocent as you believe them to be? What if somehow they were like the Nazis?
This isn’t about killing “another human being”, it’s about killing *every* human being, not for any crimes of their own but merely because they belong to an enemy tribe. The fact that you’re defending genocide just shows how religion completely, totally, absolutely destroys a person’s mind.
I'd kill every Nazi if I could. They are bad for society and the world. But it's not even close to what they were doing. Nazis are evil because they kill innocent people. But the Midyanim were evil because they were out to destroy the actual 'Good' in the world. But I'm probably way over your head here already and we've barely scratched the surface.
Goodness, there are so many pieces you've missed out on while you were surfing the internet since 11, and to jump and try to explain this one specific point without the introductory worldview, will be worse to your ears than the silence you've gotten used to. When you are ready to try to understand a different world then the 2020's let's you get used to, we can begin to talk.
Btw your questions are perfectly legitimate; your conclusion that therefore its wrong, your conclusion that you think you are disproving a Judaism a lot wiser than you, your conclusion that obviously God doesn't exist because I have a few questions, that is the issue. Meanwhile, if you knew what we were about a lot of your questions easily melt away.
If you were really ever being honest (I personally do think you really are trying to be) your question would have a different vibe: "How can a toddler be evil? I'd love to understand such a thing." Instead its "How can a toddler be evil? - They can't be, QED"
I'm not totally sure I can blame you, you've decided the whole thing is garbage before giving it a real shot, so to you its "why should I listen to a bunch of silly bearded rabbis who made things up?" - because you are already assuming, in your great wisdom, that it's all made up.
I wonder why you find it abhorrent. It seems to be your emotions. Maybe its a cognitive bias you can work on at less wrong?
Commiting genocide is a very efficient way to show your enemies you mean business.
(Honestly, unless one accepts some sort of objective morality, arguing about something being wrong makes about as much sense as arguing whether Pepsi is objectively better than coke.)
Dov Ber, do you accept Hume's argument that the only two sorts of propositions we can have knowledge of are either relations of ideas (logic and mathematics) or matters of fact (empirical observation)?
Btw DB, was thinking about your q during leining today - this may not be a full answer, but what's your take on the famous 'killing baby Hitler if you absolutely knew his future' query? (Say God Himself told you what would happen if you didn't kill him)
The Torah doesn’t say they were all future genocidal psychopaths. It says they were killed for revenge and offers no further justification. The baby hitler argument, at most, justifies killing baby Moses.
I don't think this is relevant to the discussion anyway, since Jewish theology doesn't even permit people to be punished for their future sins afaik (think of the midrash where Yishmael almost dies).
Basic tenet of Judaism, explicit in the Torah = God is perfectly good and just. So if he says to do it (and I'm sure they understood why at the time), it is good by definition. If you don't understand it, that's one thing but do you know they weren't going to destroy the world by staying alive? Genocidal psychopaths is hardly as bad as what they were doing: intentional evil to the world.
And maybe the other option, to be miserable slaves to the Jews while their families were wiped out was a worse option? To let them free is obviously not an option because they'd avenge. And maybe they'd avenge even if they were slaves. etc. etc., hey - I guess only God could know such things?
But worse, you're coming in with a moral question on the Torah, seemingly you think this proves that the Torah is not divine, but instead of learning about God's moral system, you already know everything, ergo, you already know that the Torah is made up. Not too solid.
You're assuming that the Torah is always perfectly good and just by definition. No matter what the Torah says, you will always defend it. Even if the Torah said that the Midianite children were waterboarded, you would assume that there must be a good reason (which they must have understood at the time/only God could know such things). Not too solid.
"They were evil" is something that literally everyone who commits genocide says about their victims. "how do you know they weren't going to destroy the world by staying alive" is something Hitler might've said about the Jews. "God is on our side" is something the Nazis and Jihadis said also. There is no argument you could make to defend the Torah's genocide that hasn't been used to defend other genocides, including the Holocaust.
I still hate these side arguments that distract from the point. Of course you're right, if you're not Jewish and don't believe in God. If I could prove to you that the God of the Jews is the true story, the real deal, of course this differs from your examples. So we are side-swiping by even having this silly discussion, as usual. If the Torah is true, and God said to kill them, I promise you it's morally acceptable to do so. If not, not and Moses is no different than Hitler. So what's the point of this conversation? Let's continue the real one, is the Torah divine?
This *is* a piece of evidence that the Torah isn’t divine.
Humans are known to sometimes commit genocide, and they often invoke God to justify it. The genocides described in the Torah are consistent with well-known patterns of non-divine human behavior.
If the Torah was made up by primitive desert barbarians who made their god in their image, then there is absolutely nothing mysterious about this at all. The genocides in the Torah simply reflect the cultural values of the people who made it up. It explains everything perfectly. By the principle of parsimony, we should conclude that the Torah is made up.
That's not an argument. All you are saying is that since you don't understand the Torah's morals, therefore the Torah is not true. But if the Torah was true, it's morals are just and they are eventually understandable.
To be more clear, of course if was made up by 'primitive desert barbarians..." then there is nothing mysterious, but similarly if was made by God, there is equally nothing mysterious if you know about God and His relationship with the world. You don't; you are quite ignorant about God and His relationship with the world so you have these questions. Which then serve as proof to your world view. But in reality, all the proofs melt if you'd learn about God.
(Full disclosure, I happen to be more familiar with Amalek than the Midyanim; I have to learn about the latter better - though I do get a hefty amount of it - but I imagine it's of similar nature.)
We have a looong way to go with you...
Yes, tell me O wise one about how the true enlightened philosophers support genocide
Lol, you can't expect to understand God in a moments time my sweetest child, especially if you are still in the cave. It takes years of work, but I am happy to impart my great wisdom upon you O youth.
K kidding aside, the really short version: what if they were all not quite as innocent as you believe them to be? What if somehow they were like the Nazis?
This isn’t about killing “another human being”, it’s about killing *every* human being, not for any crimes of their own but merely because they belong to an enemy tribe. The fact that you’re defending genocide just shows how religion completely, totally, absolutely destroys a person’s mind.
I'd kill every Nazi if I could. They are bad for society and the world. But it's not even close to what they were doing. Nazis are evil because they kill innocent people. But the Midyanim were evil because they were out to destroy the actual 'Good' in the world. But I'm probably way over your head here already and we've barely scratched the surface.
"The Midyanim were evil" Really? ****Every single one of them?**** Even the toddlers? How can a toddler be evil?
How is any this different from the Nazis saying that all the Jews are evil?
You have no complaint against the Nazis at all. You're no different from them.
Goodness, there are so many pieces you've missed out on while you were surfing the internet since 11, and to jump and try to explain this one specific point without the introductory worldview, will be worse to your ears than the silence you've gotten used to. When you are ready to try to understand a different world then the 2020's let's you get used to, we can begin to talk.
Btw your questions are perfectly legitimate; your conclusion that therefore its wrong, your conclusion that you think you are disproving a Judaism a lot wiser than you, your conclusion that obviously God doesn't exist because I have a few questions, that is the issue. Meanwhile, if you knew what we were about a lot of your questions easily melt away.
If you were really ever being honest (I personally do think you really are trying to be) your question would have a different vibe: "How can a toddler be evil? I'd love to understand such a thing." Instead its "How can a toddler be evil? - They can't be, QED"
I'm not totally sure I can blame you, you've decided the whole thing is garbage before giving it a real shot, so to you its "why should I listen to a bunch of silly bearded rabbis who made things up?" - because you are already assuming, in your great wisdom, that it's all made up.
[guy killing noncombatant civilian women and toddlers] "I’m doing this because *they’re* like the Nazis"
You're pretty sexist lol, women don't have the ability to be evil? Children should be your only argument.
I am not saying they are Nazis, I was using an example of something that you can fathom that would make it okay to kill another human being.
But to actually answer your question, you clearly disproved the existence of a God because you can't understand Him, good job!
Do you support abortion,Dov Ber?
I wonder why you find it abhorrent. It seems to be your emotions. Maybe its a cognitive bias you can work on at less wrong?
Commiting genocide is a very efficient way to show your enemies you mean business.
(Honestly, unless one accepts some sort of objective morality, arguing about something being wrong makes about as much sense as arguing whether Pepsi is objectively better than coke.)
Dov Ber, do you accept Hume's argument that the only two sorts of propositions we can have knowledge of are either relations of ideas (logic and mathematics) or matters of fact (empirical observation)?
Btw DB, was thinking about your q during leining today - this may not be a full answer, but what's your take on the famous 'killing baby Hitler if you absolutely knew his future' query? (Say God Himself told you what would happen if you didn't kill him)
The Torah doesn’t say they were all future genocidal psychopaths. It says they were killed for revenge and offers no further justification. The baby hitler argument, at most, justifies killing baby Moses.
I don't think this is relevant to the discussion anyway, since Jewish theology doesn't even permit people to be punished for their future sins afaik (think of the midrash where Yishmael almost dies).
Basic tenet of Judaism, explicit in the Torah = God is perfectly good and just. So if he says to do it (and I'm sure they understood why at the time), it is good by definition. If you don't understand it, that's one thing but do you know they weren't going to destroy the world by staying alive? Genocidal psychopaths is hardly as bad as what they were doing: intentional evil to the world.
And maybe the other option, to be miserable slaves to the Jews while their families were wiped out was a worse option? To let them free is obviously not an option because they'd avenge. And maybe they'd avenge even if they were slaves. etc. etc., hey - I guess only God could know such things?
But worse, you're coming in with a moral question on the Torah, seemingly you think this proves that the Torah is not divine, but instead of learning about God's moral system, you already know everything, ergo, you already know that the Torah is made up. Not too solid.
You're assuming that the Torah is always perfectly good and just by definition. No matter what the Torah says, you will always defend it. Even if the Torah said that the Midianite children were waterboarded, you would assume that there must be a good reason (which they must have understood at the time/only God could know such things). Not too solid.
Correct again. I will always defend it because I believe God gave it. See https://dovber.substack.com/p/the-midian-genocide/comment/20901092
Based on what you have written you seem to using Divine Command Theory. However this a very weak basis for morality https://altercockerjewishatheist.blogspot.com/2014/05/proof-of-god-from-morality-part-one.html
"They were evil" is something that literally everyone who commits genocide says about their victims. "how do you know they weren't going to destroy the world by staying alive" is something Hitler might've said about the Jews. "God is on our side" is something the Nazis and Jihadis said also. There is no argument you could make to defend the Torah's genocide that hasn't been used to defend other genocides, including the Holocaust.
I still hate these side arguments that distract from the point. Of course you're right, if you're not Jewish and don't believe in God. If I could prove to you that the God of the Jews is the true story, the real deal, of course this differs from your examples. So we are side-swiping by even having this silly discussion, as usual. If the Torah is true, and God said to kill them, I promise you it's morally acceptable to do so. If not, not and Moses is no different than Hitler. So what's the point of this conversation? Let's continue the real one, is the Torah divine?
This *is* a piece of evidence that the Torah isn’t divine.
Humans are known to sometimes commit genocide, and they often invoke God to justify it. The genocides described in the Torah are consistent with well-known patterns of non-divine human behavior.
If the Torah was made up by primitive desert barbarians who made their god in their image, then there is absolutely nothing mysterious about this at all. The genocides in the Torah simply reflect the cultural values of the people who made it up. It explains everything perfectly. By the principle of parsimony, we should conclude that the Torah is made up.
This should cause you to downweight whatever evidence you think you have for the Torah being divine.
That's not an argument. All you are saying is that since you don't understand the Torah's morals, therefore the Torah is not true. But if the Torah was true, it's morals are just and they are eventually understandable.
To be more clear, of course if was made up by 'primitive desert barbarians..." then there is nothing mysterious, but similarly if was made by God, there is equally nothing mysterious if you know about God and His relationship with the world. You don't; you are quite ignorant about God and His relationship with the world so you have these questions. Which then serve as proof to your world view. But in reality, all the proofs melt if you'd learn about God.
(Full disclosure, I happen to be more familiar with Amalek than the Midyanim; I have to learn about the latter better - though I do get a hefty amount of it - but I imagine it's of similar nature.)